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lugnut
06 July 2011, 0905
I thought maybe a new thread was in order. Here is some recent back ground:

We were the only team in the TTX75 class,....

This makes you wonder why they even have the 75 class.

It was to give the small guys a chance. The folks who built bikes in their garage, small companies like ARC, or companies who wanted to concentrate on small effeicient bikes. To be honest I am really surprised eCRP and Zongshen aren't running the 75 class this year. I am sure ARC would like some competition.

It is my opinion that, atleast here in the US: the economy, getting crushed by Agni, Lightning, and Thad Wolf, and the flexing of muscle seen over the off season by Mission, Brammo, Motocsyzs, ect., all conspired to turn people away this year. Add to that the appearent unavailability to lease a Mavizen. I think if so few bikes keep turning up for the 75 class you will see a bunch show up next year, and continue to pogo up and down over the next few years as equalibrium takes its effect on the number of entrants. It's a brand new class, with so far only one or 2 races in each series. I say give it time. Look what Lightning, Mission, Brammo, MotoCzysz, eCRP have brought to the game this year after only the first year of the series? Not to mention Zongshen joining the series as well. Ok, granted, Mission and Brammo said they would show last year and never did, and Czysz has built a new bike every year for the TT and only does the e-power races so far, but look what only one year has done.
Some good points made. But the division of the TTXGP has not worked out so well. I realize it is still early in the game. But too early to split the grid in my opinion. Some interesting observations.

NA race one. Two GP bikes, Two 75 bikes.

Euro race two. 7 GP bikes, One 75 bike.

Aust race one. 2 GP bikes, One 75 bike.

In the Australian race, the winning GP bike was significantly lighter with a smaller battery than the 75 bike. Go figure.

The rules from the TTXGP started out with the 75 class having 200 kg max but soon changed to 250 kg, same as the GP class.

The 75 and GP races are the same length, run at the same time.

There is still no real verification of battery energy which is the only differentiation between the 2 classes.

Speculation that the 75 class creation was driven by Mavizen and CRP seems to be wrong since Mavizen hasn't yet put a bike on the grid and CRP runs the GP class.

I thought I'd start some discussion about this. Likely there is not much we can do about it one way or the other. Personally, I feel there should be a single class until there are enough competitors to split it.

I am keeping an eye on the upcoming Laguna Seca race. Hopefully I can make it. Has anybody seen the grid or class split, or will they even run 2 classes with the FIM??

teddillard
06 July 2011, 0913
... In the Australian race, the GP bike was significantly lighter with a smaller battery than the GP bike. ...

huh?

Thanks for pulling this out to a new thread.

DaveAK
06 July 2011, 0959
Speculation that the 75 class creation was driven by Mavizen and CRP seems to be wrong since Mavizen hasn't yet put a bike on the grid and CRP runs the GP class.

I thought I'd start some discussion about this. Likely there is not much we can do about it one way or the other. Personally, I feel there should be a single class until there are enough competitors to split it.
My guess is this. Batteries are pretty much the thing that differentiates the teams that are using off the shelf parts. Batteries cost a **** load of money. In an attempt to encourage more competitors to join the races they looked at reducing the battery costs. It didn't work as planned. I really don't think that there's much more to it than that.

Having said all that the reality is that racing is expensive and very difficult to do on a shoestring budget. If you can save some money on a smaller pack then that's great, but probably not very significant in the scheme of things. You're still running Agni motors or whatever though, so those costs are equivalent to GP class anyway.

Maybe with Mavizen now being a source of A123 batteries they can attach some kind of sponsorship deal geared towards encouraging more 75 class bikes, while letting the GP class guys make their own deals.

lugnut
06 July 2011, 1040
huh?

Correction made. Thanks.

chef
06 July 2011, 1241
Last year when the 2011 rule changes were being discussed, some of us brought up these exact points as reasons why they didn't make sense. There aren't enough teams to split into classes. The way they were split wasn't very wise. Technology is changing far too rapidly to tie teams down with arbitrary restrictions. On the other side were alot of emotions defending how great the new rules would be. Anyway not going to rehash the debates. The results speak for themselves.

DaveAK
06 July 2011, 1257
Last year when the 2011 rule changes were being discussed, some of us brought up these exact points as reasons why they didn't make sense. There aren't enough teams to split into classes. The way they were split wasn't very wise. Technology is changing far too rapidly to tie teams down with arbitrary restrictions. On the other side were alot of emotions defending how great the new rules would be. Anyway not going to rehash the debates. The results speak for themselves.
I don't think the results do speak for themselves, or at least the points you made don't necessarily fit with the results.

If there weren't enough teams to split into classes, (of which I agree), then maybe the goal was to increase the number of teams. If that was the case, and it was determined that smaller budget teams were needed then a smaller class would seem to fit that bill. The fact that it didn't work doesn't mean that it was a mistake. I do think that perhaps the timing was wrong or the plan wasn't executed as well as it could have been, but with some refinement and appropriate incentives I think there's something to it.

As for rapid technology changes and arbitary restrictions, well I think you'll find exactly that in every major and not so major motorsport series in the world.

frodus
06 July 2011, 1357
I think they're trying to figure out how to get more guys like us on the field. It's market research, except they acted on it.

DaveAK
06 July 2011, 1410
I think they're trying to figure out how to get more guys like us on the field. It's market research, except they acted on it.
Sounds about right to me. Trouble is I'm not a pro-racer, but I would love to be a club racer again. I really think that's where they've got to start.

jazclrint
06 July 2011, 1708
What I would like to look at the 3 biggest grids from last year: the first round of the NA series, biggest from the UK, and the world final. Then divide those gids up according to the new class rules. I think that would make it easier to see why they did what they did then. Last year it seemed like there were a bunch of people who showed up and then got left in the dust. It seemed to me the 75 class was formed so those guys had a fighting chance for a podium, and so they would com back. Only they didn't, or at least haven't yet.

I'd have no problem building a bike, running a team, and finding someone fast to ride the bike for me. But that's me.

DaveAK
06 July 2011, 1726
I'd have no problem building a bike, running a team, and finding someone fast to ride the bike for me. But that's me.
Yeah, me too, but I'm not sure of your point. Are you saying you don't care for the TTX75 and would run the GP class? Or the TTX75 class would give you the opportunity to build a team?

I doubt for a pro or semi-pro team that there's much difference in cost for running either class if it just comes down to batteries. That's where club racing comes in. When I raced I was a one man team. I drove the van, wielded the spanners and rode the bike. A veritable David Essex. :D I can see that maybe a cheaper class would be more attainable to someone like me, but it truly has to be cheaper. I just don't think you're going to get many pro teams running TTX75, and it's still to pro for most club racers.

jazclrint
06 July 2011, 2257
Yeah, me too, but I'm not sure of your point. Are you saying you don't care for the TTX75 and would run the GP class? Or the TTX75 class would give you the opportunity to build a team?.

I'd build a bike for the 75 class. Actually, I'd be doing it right this minute if I had money. For me, the concept of running in the 75 class is less about the money and more about I know I don't and can't have the engineering effort and prototyping ability to take the "factories" head on. So I guess I do feel the GP class costs much more. Sure the actualy costs of the bikes would be similar, but with the GP teams you are looking at paying a team of engineers, the cost of a dyno, renting a track for testing, plus the cost of prototyping, plus facilities to do all that. I can repair, maintain and troubleshoot electrical systems but I am no engineer and I just couldn't compete with the likes of Motocsysz, Mission, Brammo, Lighting, CRP, Zongshen, or Agni. But I'd love to take a crack at the guys in the 75 class because with the limited battery power, I know I have a shot. All i have to do is get the bike as light as possible, make it carry as much coner speed as possible, and make sure the rider doesn't use more power than it takes to get to the line. Any advantages a factory team would have in this class is in effeicency. Fortunately, EVs are already so effiecent any gains would be small. Would I probably lose to a factory in that case? Well yes, but at least I wouldn't get lapped. And I'd be pretty confident that whatever advances they were making would be coming my way eventually.

DaveAK
06 July 2011, 2322
OK gotcha. That's pretty much my position too. In fact that's exactly what I think.

jazclrint
07 July 2011, 1733
OK gotcha. That's pretty much my position too. In fact that's exactly what I think.

I'm so sorry. :D

Interesting devolpment, well sorta. I just added the points up for the Aussie boys and I hadn't realized that most of the bike down under are 75 bikes. Very cool. Signs to come?

lugnut
07 July 2011, 2011
Interesting devolpment, well sorta. I just added the points up for the Aussie boys and I hadn't realized that most of the bike down under are 75 bikes. Very cool. Signs to come?

I find it ironic that Ripperton placed first out of the 3, ran in the GP class, and I believe had the lightest bike and smallest battery at 135 kg and under 6 kWh.

SplinterOz
08 July 2011, 0030
Yep ripperton fits the 75 class restrictions... but Daniel wants to be racing GP

jazclrint
09 July 2011, 1206
Is there a blog about his build? I'm really curious because I have been curious about a pack weight vs power supplied. It sounds like he has found that balance.

Skeezmour
09 July 2011, 1211
Is there a blog about his build? I'm really curious because I have been curious about a pack weight vs power supplied. It sounds like he has found that balance.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ripperton-electric-track-bike-41173p35.html

SplinterOz
09 July 2011, 1600
Daniel just added an extra entry on the build thread on his battery termination method...
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e62/ripperton_2008/Electric%20R1/DSC00069-1.jpg
More photos on the link.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=249935&postcount=348

DaveAK
09 July 2011, 1710
Without making me go read the whole thread, what cells is he using? They appear to be tabbed top and bottom. I was thinking of a similar non-welded setup, but without hole punching. I might have to give that some thought now. Hadn't figured out the framing either, but was thinking along the lines of some rigid structure like this.

SplinterOz
09 July 2011, 1752
Sorry I don't know his source however I know they are 3800mAh cells.

Brammofan
10 July 2011, 0541
Without making me go read the whole thread, what cells is he using?

You ask, we answer:

I got them from Batterist in Korea they were 4.35Ah XQ runnout cells and damn cheap at $8.60 each Fedexed to Sydney. He might have a few left but not enough to make a pack. You will have to get the 4.5Ah XQ at about $17 each
jason@batterist.com (From http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=249985&postcount=352 )

Skeezmour
10 July 2011, 0937
Didn't A123 shut down production on those cells in Jaunary?